Why should I believe in a spiritual dimension

I have been an atheist and an absolute physicalist for all my life, but recently I feel like more and more spiritual and supernatural stuff is creeping into mainstream discourse.

I read this post on reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/r/consciousness/comments/1bz2gxs/dream_triangles_a_thought_experiment/ ), and what struck me was that it didn't just sound like schizo ramblings, like most spiritual stuff does. But even so, it seems to me to face an obvious problem: we live in a physical reality, and there is no evidence of there being anything except the physical. To me, the idea of there existing some spiritual dimension where dreams or mental activity exists is very odd and counter-intuitive.

Am I missing something here? Why would anyone ever start the notion that there could be anything except the physical? Why not start with the fact that we live in a physical universe, a fact established by copious evidence, and then go from there?

As I say, I've been a hardline physicalist all my life. But despite all that I'm coming to this board because I'm willing to hear what you folks have to say. Why should I believe in a spiritual/non-physical dimension?

CRIME Shirt $21.68

Ape Out Shirt $21.68

CRIME Shirt $21.68

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The point is to start without any metaphysical presupposition, which is what the Reddit post is doing, and it's ending up with conclusion that physicalism is bullshit.

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Believe whatever you want, homosexual. Nobody cares.
    Protip: no physicalist would ever use the word "physicalism".
    Jesus fricking Christ, i wish I could punch you in the balls, repeatedly

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Actually numerous physicalists use the word physicalism or refer to themselves physicalists, such as Rudolf Carnap, Otto Neurath, Daniel Stoljar, Keith Frankish, David Lewis, J.J.C. Smart and Philip Pettit.

      Indeed, over half of living philosophers identify themselves as physicalists.

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11098-013-0259-7

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I agree with

        Believe whatever you want, homosexual. Nobody cares.
        Protip: no physicalist would ever use the word "physicalism".
        Jesus fricking Christ, i wish I could punch you in the balls, repeatedly

        .
        You’re a pretentious twat and I’d like to break your fricking jaw with a brick. How’s that for “physicalism”?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          If you smashed me on the jaw with a brick, I'd like be knocked out due to physical force exerted on my physical brain, therefore disrupting the physical, epiphonemenal process that is "consciousness". Nowhere in this process would your ludicrous woo woo beliefs be relevant.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            lmao what homie

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They are all over Newton's nuts

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I wish a girl would come over here and punch my balls..

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      spbp

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        no it isn't, there is no point in a discussion board if every answer is 'believe what you want, I don't care'. And it doesn't help that it is wrapped up in 14 year old edge.

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >As I say, I've been a hardline physicalist all my life. But despite all that I'm coming to this board because I'm willing to hear what you folks have to say. Why should I believe in a spiritual/non-physical dimension?

    Former hardline physicalist here, my advice would be to walk away and retain your existing belief set. It may be wrong, but it's internally consistent and you have a much better chance of remaining happy for the rest of your days than you will if you begin to unravel the real nature of this place. I only wish I could unlearn what I discovered, but you can't go back.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Give me the fruit of knowledge.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      sounds like a skill issue
      just ground yourself and learn to be

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        stop letting your monkey brain get scared by all the wacky shit beyond the veil
        its just a projection of your and everyone elses mind afterall

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      > walk away and retain your existing belief set.
      totally agree. not to gatekeep or because "I've learned too much" or anything like that, but because I choose to believe that you should just chill the hell out, and every person I've ever met in real life, myself included, who has been involved in spiritual seeking, doesn't seem to have helped people much. It tends to be a very selfish enterprise, however much people like to dress it up in fancy terms.
      So I'd say just don't even bother with spirituality, or trying to have discussions about it, or anything like that. If enlightenment is a thing, then the primordial absolute is already fully enlightened, and you don't need to realize to help out. If jesus died for your sins, that already happened, you don't need to be martyred for anyone else's sake, he already got it.
      It's the same thing with the 'save the environment' globalists. Like awesome guys, I trust you, you got it, have fricking fun "saving the world". It's the same thing with spirituality as presented by self-presented atheists who ask for evidence.
      Be convinced or not, but it's up to you and whether you want to be honest about your life and your role in life. No one is going to convince you, it'll happen on its own, if and when you start being drawn to literature or music or art or some other aspect of life, and then finally it'll click in one moment that goddamn I've been a myopic moron my whole life.
      And then 99 times out of a hundred you'll just go back to sleep and forget the feeling under the seeming crushing weight of it all, but really that's just a fricking lie and you could drop it if you wanted to wake up, but you'll forget because boobs.
      Which is fine, because boobs, i get it.
      But seriously just forget about getting convinced re: spirituality bc you have to do it yourself in your own life on your own terms for your own self, or not at all. People are usually happier if they just live normal lives, there are many reasons for this.

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Why would anyone ever start the notion that there could be anything except the physical?
    Because you see weird shit. So undeniable that you HAVE to accept it and start making hypothesis about whatever the frick you saw. I'll be honest, if I hadn't seen objects moving by themselves, which meant it wasn't a hallucination. Dreamt of people who died a day before, without prior knowledge that said person had died, and never having dreamt of said person before or since. If none of that happened, I wouldn't believe this. But these things and more did happen and now I think we live in something analogous, but not quite a simulation.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Because you see weird shit.

      The physical can be weird too

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >I'm willing to hear what you folks have to say. Why should I believe in a spiritual/non-physical dimension?
    Then do what EerieWeb actually do and test shit out, experiment with the sources on this board instead of just jerking off to preconceived notions of what reality has to be like in accordance with your long held world view.

    The one thing that did it for me personally a long time ago was Tarot. There are sections of a spread that "predicts the future" as it is generally known in pop culture, but that is not the mind breaking part. The part that will break your mind are the sections that tell you what your current query is and the state of your current mind/mood/situation. Those sections for me had been dead on to a card every single read. You could try to rationalize this as your mind playing tricks on you through confirmation bias or whatnot, but when the same cards start showing up in those same sections and the accuracy just kept piling on read after read, it just gets to a point it becomes impossible to try to deny the obvious.

    If your consciousness is just physical configuration of braincells locked in a skull that have no bearing on your world at large, then there is no way your mental state and questions asked in your head could influence these cards in anyway. But nonetheless it irrevocably did for me, and that opened the rest the rabbit hole.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >and there is no evidence of there being anything except the physical.
    A person has to prove to Fedora tippers that the spirit realm exists, but you don't have to prove that it doesnt. You are all hypocrites and Atheism is a religion.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The burden of proof is on the one making the claim

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Atheists make claims inherent in their denial that they refuse to back up. You are stunted and never honestly looked for anything outside the fake little world where you feel secure. God resists the proud.

  7. 2 months ago
    karras

    physical matter and other states of waveforms are literally just energy being expressed and observed. Hell, even what we describe as energy is just the transfer of a waveform through a medium. The medium isn't physical matter, either...
    There is no physical reality at all, it's just groupings of electrical fields trapping various states of energy into various patterns which cause other interactions with and between other various waveforms. It's not that hard. Do some research (in a physics textbook) and then do some more research (studying physics and theoretical physics).
    If you want me to try and convince you there is some "spiritual dimension" I will fail, because I believe that all realities exist simultaneously and forever, which encompasses all infinite possible realities and their so-on infinite versions as well as our own, and every possible reality that stems from every possible instance, etc. As far as this particular reality we find ourselves in (in this particular frame of time) goes, I think the spiritual aspect is packaged with what you consider physical as one deal. As far as life and death, we are all either convinced of some dogmatic bullshit, or we admit we don't know. I personally think that maybe it just never ends and we are trapped reincarnating, forgetting memories over and over again until we can remember everything we have experienced while we are currently incarnated, reuniting with whatever God is while we are still in the flesh and then going on to access oneness while still alive and thus living forever and acting in harmony and balance with the universe.
    It's either that, or that I'm currently in hell and all of this is an illusion meant to torture me.

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The common man is a parrot of others beliefs and ideas hence the term "echochamber" and in spirituality the schools of thought not sharing their work is detrimental to the rational mind seeking the whole truth. All religions are wrong and correct in their own way some holy texts detailing of how cultures have gone astray thinking they were right for the future to learn from. If "the Roman invention of Christ" is to be believed, or even only considered, then the new testament(body and mind) is a work which transcends limiting one track schools of thought on religion and brings all together under the ONE True Living God: emanuel(God with us) Christ (the annointes One/Source/ the thing which is passing though and in all matter). Even if not's to be believed and the text is true of it's own historically accredited sources then it is still an amalgamtion of the truth of all religions making clear for those willing to listen and, at least try to, understand of the One. Each day is a sacrifice of something whether it be money, time, or energy and to sacrifice for ones friends is the greatest love. There is substance which is in all physical matter which is not physical yet is in a constant notion and action through physical effects of destroying and creating. It's very difficult to accurately describe the soul in totality but simply I'll define it as a massively higher ordered compact form of energy able to harness & enact the destructive & creative attributes of the essence/ether/nonphysical properties in nature through the physical. The spiritual realm is very real just not in the way of basic understandings from centuries ago invading modern thought process. Look into quantum physics and the non physical properties of nature and reality and I wish you well on your personal journey for the truth ( it's out there 🙂 )

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    a real and physical being, being the only part of the ride seems counter-intuitive to me

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's only us choosing different experiences. That's all it's ever been.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      after listening to this, I no longer believe in anything spiritual.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >there is no evidence of there being anything except the physical
    try using your personal experience. direct and sincere inquiry into the nature of your conscious perception, without relying on words in the process, universally leads to an understanding that the physical is a vanishingly small aspect of reality.
    > Why not start with the fact that we live in a physical universe and then go from there?
    strip away the cultural trappings and this is the foundation of every faith-based structure.
    >Why should I believe in a spiritual/non-physical dimension?
    Don't, just be fulfilled being what you already are and don't worry it's all fine. Seriously, discussion is overrated.
    I'll just suggest that the way perception, belief, and outcome are generally understood to play out is backwards.
    You experience existing > There is a perceived (mental or physical) object > You adopt a POV in relation to this object (this is your "belief") > The relationship between your POV and reality generates an emotional response like flint hitting steel > The emotion is experienced
    This happens countless times in parallel, constantly. If you, through direct personal inquiry, can begin to observe the points of view you have adopted in relation to the things you perceive, then you will begin to understand why belief in the metaphysical continues while also dislodging your sense of identity from the objects with which it has become entangled.
    You can do this through stopping all thought, all intellectual process, for 2-5 seconds at a time, 10-12 times a day, while paying attention to that which remains (your awareness of). Within a few weeks of doing this you will have attained to the 99th percentile of spiritual seeking.
    You could also just genuinely pray to jesus christ or god that usually does the trick for people but that usually takes some real shit to go down first, and yours seems an intellectual query.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Like all posts dismissing the possibility of machine consciousness, this post is just feelgood im special bullshit. By what standard of evidence are human imagination triangles 'real' but computer imagination triangles 'fake'?

    "I can't see a triangle in computer memory, only ones and zeroes, therefore it's not a real triangle" is a pleb argument. Electrodes hooked to a computer wouldn't be able to see your imaginary triangle in your human memory, only variances in voltage and impedence - would it then conclude that your imaginary triangle isn't real?

    What makes your imagined triangle real, as far as people who aren't you are concerned, is that you can talk about it. You can tell me what color your triangle is. You can tell me how big it is, what the angles are. You can reason with your triangle. You can tell me what might happen if I shone a light at your triangle. You can imagine what your triangle might do if it were used as a structural support for a building. Etc.

    Computers can do all these things. The computer could run an image recognition model over its video memory and tell you the triangle is there. That model could probably even tell you the dimensions and color of the triangle. You could even use an image generation model paired with a language model and imagine different triangles. You could use ray tracing to imagine what might happen if light hit the triangle. You could even ask that language model to write a schizo post about how it's the only true consciousness in the world and the imaginary triangle is the proof.

    It would probably even be more coherent than this one.

    A century from now, when sentient computers are commonplace (assuming that society doesn't burn down), people will still question whether they're really sentient or 'faking it', just like this post begs that question. The truth is, your experience of consciousness only exists for you. For you, it's special. For others, it's just physical reality.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    First step is to realize science is gay and all the science worshippers are deranged

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >If anyone wishes to engage thoughtfully, feel free to join my thread on Reddit
    kys homosexual, created a reddit account to downvote

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    IM GOING FUVKING INSANE! WHAT THE FRICK DO YOU MEAN "THE TRIALNGLE IS NOT PHYSICALLY SUBSTANTIANTED" BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, ARE YOU SERIOUSLY ASKING ME WHY THE FRICK YOU CAN IMAGINE THINGS? ARE YOU moronic? AND YES, AN EQUATION OF A TRIANGLE IS AS GOOD AS THE REAL THING, THERE! HAPPY? ITS ALL JUST CIRCULAR LOGIC BUUUILLSHIIT WITH THE SAEM THIGN SAID OVER AND OVER AND OAVER AND OA ER AND OVEF AND OVEG ANF OVAR AND OAVE AND OA E

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    You are physicalist. Yet magnetism exists, though we cannot witness but the end result with our eyes.

    Can we see gravitational waves? Can you see dark matter or dark energy?

    Yet matter your eyes can see, your body interact with, consists only 5 percent of the universe.

    That is your proof. Physical reality is small part of God's creation.

    But why make another mistake and become merely a spiritualist?

    Become a christian, and be known to Jesus Christ, and win eternal life. He is the only Truth we have.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Become a Christian, just because ok!

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Why should I believe in a spiritual dimension
    Maybe you shouldn't. Study and hope for an experience which will let you consider it, but if you won't get any, maybe that is for some reason.
    >If anyone wishes to engage thoughtfully, feel free to join my thread on Reddit
    >a redditor comes here, shits on anons without having anything substantial to say otherwise, tries to have them join him in reddit
    Looks suspicious as frick. Maybe you should stay in your reddit thread rather than trying to advertize and attention-prostitute here.

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The argument against atheism is that it's useless, selfdepreciating and first and foremost boring. Nobody can refute your claim to spirituality, so it's basically a free for all and one of the few decisions you can make that can be detached from any outside influences. You basically get to pick whatever speaks to you or even building it completely by yourself and you chose "nothing". And this is quite telling because most atheists chose nothing to have a claim to be smarter than religious people. But all they constantly do is reaffirming to themself and by that convincing themself that they are nothing. If you really were right and you die and there is nothing you have the same nothing as the spiritual person but the spiritual person wouldn't have spent their whole life thinking of it as worthless. And if you are wrong you are lacking behind everyone who at least expected something.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I don't have a choice in what I believe. I believe things because they are true.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Belief is a powerful tool at your disposal, you can work with it, use it to harm or leave it lying around catching dust. If you think you have no choice in what you believe it's catching dust. It is the only choice nobody can deny you but yourself no matter how hard they try to convince you of the opposite.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >just delude yourself lol
          aint you types supposed to think thats unenlightened

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The question was why one should believe in a spiritual realm and when deluding yourself into spirituality can be more beneficial than deluding yourself into nothing it's the lowest common denominator to answer your question. And atheists don't really care about enlightenment so it's unfit to use it in a discussion with them. It's just scientific facts "belief is a powerful psychological tool, If you learn how to use it for your benefit it's better than not using it at all." Simple and can't be refuted since anyone who isn't moronic won't use their belief to hurt themselves... Unless they chose to. So atheism is just self depreciative delusion and since you are already deluding yourself you can at least make something out of that.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    But your subjective experience is not reality lol
    N yeah it exists as a little pattern in your visual cortex idk what the problem is lol soon theyll be able to train ai on your brain patterns and read your thoughts

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >I've been a hardline physicalist all my life.
    What are your thoughts on the idea that all matter is energy and that our senses are essentially just a form of bioelectric response to external stimuli? Philosophy can't even really describe what "real" is, and reality generally becomes more and more subjective as a result.

    There still isn't even definitive proof or answer for what the driving force for what consciousness even is. We are basically running around blind in all these regards. It's like understanding how a computer works but not knowing you need electricity to power it.

    Guess my question is, if what makes you "you" is all technically theoretical concept and the only way you can interact with this world is through a body and the only way that "you" can interpret information is through stimulus to a body what is there to believe in besides the fact that there is "something else"?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yes there is lol, you get Phineas Gaged or lobotomized you lose your personality but the machine still runs
      You ARE your brain

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I guess the DJ speaking on my radio is actually IN the radio too, given that if I smash an iron rod into it it stops working.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          you can pick up the signal with any radio though. why is it that the only thing in your theory that can pick up consciousness signals is your specific brain, no other instrument, and if it changes in any way, it can never pick up the signal the same way again.
          theres just no reason to presuppose "consciousness waves" exist when we have all the predictive power we need with physicalism

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't presuppose conscious waves exist. I simply don't presuppose that anything but experience exists.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Then what was the point of your stupid fricking radio analogy if not to parrot the moronic antenna theory
            Fricking motte and bailey homosexual

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The radio analogy simply shows that there are different ways that things work, that might not accord with our prima facie presumptions. A tribal man seeing a radio for the first time would probably think it is obvious that it is possessed by spirits. The point is that when you make claims like "look at Phileas Fogg! That proves physicalism is true!" there's a load of presuppositions going on. The point is, you don't have a clue. You're like the blind man who has never heard of an elephant touching an elephant's trunk and no more, being told that it's an animal called an "elephant", and concluding that an elephant must be no more than a long snakey thing.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >phileas fogg
            the balloon homie?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        So then where is the personality stored in the brain?
        Personally, I feel that brain destruction/tampering is good enough evidence to support an idea that a "self" is located within the mind alone as there are also many cases of people having their brains destroyed or injured and people just didn't even know it. I can think of a few prominent cases such as the man missing 90% of his brain and a woman who was found to have missing her entire left temporal lobe. These people were speaking fine, acting fine, behaving fine.

        Personally, I still feel like a majority of the "driving force" that exists to power or pilot the organic machine exists separately and takes only some parts with it. The reason I feel this is because I've had involuntary loss of consciousness a few times in my life from a reaction to minor blood loss (blood pressure suddenly drops to something like 70/50 ish). And even with that acute deprivation of oxygen and blood concentration. I'm dreaming every time.

        One time I swore I was just walking out of the phlebotomy room until nurses were frantically trying to shake me back to consciousness. I wasn't reactive to ANYTHING for a good minute or so. I thought I was just pleasantly walking to my car with every detail of the hallway still there. How was my brain able to produce such a vivid dream, whilst unconscious, whilst low on blood oxygen, whilst low on blood pressure? If my brain is my "self" how was I able to visualize and be a "self" while in such a degree of being unconscious? Also, how are comatose people able to do the same thing as there are dozens of reports of comatose people not recognizing that they're comatose but engaged in a lengthy dream; some cases as normal as regular life itself.

        There's more questions to be answered, more paths to travel still, we don't have all the answers. I'm at least humble enough to admit humanity isn't at that stage yet.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >ndeez
          you werent dead though, your brain is still active during "unconsciousness"
          we have never brought someone back from true death

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >you are your personality
        lol, baby's first epistemology

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          cope

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >he doesn't know

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            If there were something more to it then youd have said it in the last few hours. But here you're posting le based brogrammer.

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >nobody can come up with a good reply to https://www.reddit.com/r/consciousness/comments/1c0zejs/some_thoughts_on_the_dream_triangle_post_and/?rdt=41670
    its over idealistbros

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Stop spamming that shit, we aren't gonna go raid your dumb little thread. Also that subreddit looks moronic, stop trying to pass it off as anything more than a wankfest between teenagers who want to play philosopher scientist.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        then by your admission the op is pointless to discuss because its more of the same

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I had to put it in an image because the text didn't fit here.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Is this from the new age bs generator? Where's the "humanity has nothing to lose" kek

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This is from my mind. Do you have better contribution?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Literally posting nothing is better

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Do the same. You're no less than a bot so far

  23. 2 months ago
    brainlet

    because we said so

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    If /x/ posts triggers you, then maybe you shouldn't browse /x/.
    If you feel the need to browse /x/, then maybe ask yourself why that is.

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    why would women be able to smell the difference in fappin vs frickin

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    for real, I got the same feeling reading this thread.
    your original post, and

    Like all posts dismissing the possibility of machine consciousness, this post is just feelgood im special bullshit. By what standard of evidence are human imagination triangles 'real' but computer imagination triangles 'fake'?

    "I can't see a triangle in computer memory, only ones and zeroes, therefore it's not a real triangle" is a pleb argument. Electrodes hooked to a computer wouldn't be able to see your imaginary triangle in your human memory, only variances in voltage and impedence - would it then conclude that your imaginary triangle isn't real?

    What makes your imagined triangle real, as far as people who aren't you are concerned, is that you can talk about it. You can tell me what color your triangle is. You can tell me how big it is, what the angles are. You can reason with your triangle. You can tell me what might happen if I shone a light at your triangle. You can imagine what your triangle might do if it were used as a structural support for a building. Etc.

    Computers can do all these things. The computer could run an image recognition model over its video memory and tell you the triangle is there. That model could probably even tell you the dimensions and color of the triangle. You could even use an image generation model paired with a language model and imagine different triangles. You could use ray tracing to imagine what might happen if light hit the triangle. You could even ask that language model to write a schizo post about how it's the only true consciousness in the world and the imaginary triangle is the proof.

    It would probably even be more coherent than this one.

    A century from now, when sentient computers are commonplace (assuming that society doesn't burn down), people will still question whether they're really sentient or 'faking it', just like this post begs that question. The truth is, your experience of consciousness only exists for you. For you, it's special. For others, it's just physical reality.

    , are literally the only coherent posts. is everyone else just forced schizo bots or mindbroken trolls? for what it's worth, this is probably the most interesting thread on /x/ right now.

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    I wasn't responding to the triangly thingy just the question in the heading.
    >Am I missing something?
    Possibly full aknowledgement &or deep understanding of the nonphysical & metaphysical properties of reality understood through the physical?

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    because it 'feels' cool.

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >but you can't PROVE its not-
      Yet thats how the evidence weighs

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >evidence
        The burden of proof is on you

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *