Was Being Removed From Eden Punishment?

I pose this question with all seriousness. If you would give me just a moment of your time, I'll explain the best I can. My question and views might take multiple posts, so bare with me.
The basics:
>Adam and Even (man and woman) are in Eden
>All is perfect and God walks with them in the garden
>God says "Do not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you do, you shall surely die"
>serpent comes along to Eve and says "eat it, you won't die, you'll be like God"
>Eve eats, gives it to Adam, he eats
>They both realise they're naked, and put on leaves to cover themselves
>They hid from God as he came looking for them, God asked for Adam but he said he was hiding
>God asks why, Adam says he's naked
>God asks who told you that you were naked, then the realisation hits "Did you eat the fruit I told you not to eat?"

Now it starts to get interesting to me

>Adam says "Well the woman, who YOU MADE FOR ME by the way, gave it to me and I ate it"
>God asks Eve "what did you do?" and she says the serpent deceived her and I ate it

Then, God gives them "punishments" and casts them out of the garden.

So what were these punishments exactly?
<cont>

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    <cont>

    So the punishments consisted of:
    >man and woman would always have differences with each other and be resentful of each other
    >woman would have to give painful child birth and would have to submit to her husband
    >man would have to toil and live by the sweat of his brow
    >and from dust you came and to dust you shall return
    >cast out of Eden

    We got that out of the way. We're all on the same page? Great.

    Now, here's what started this thought process of mine.
    If this is the punishment, what was the original sin exactly?
    Most of everyone teaches that the original sin is the disobedience.
    But as some have argued, sadly mostly LHP occultists, how could they have known disobedience if they didn't know the difference between truth and falsehood? Truth is good, falsehood is evil. But they weren't aware of this. They took information in, and that's it. They were told two contradicting statements, but without the concept of Truth and Falsehood, there was no way for them to understand that they were being lied to and would be disobeying God. Disobedience as a concept couldn't exist for them either since they were not aware of what Good and Evil are. So why would they be punished for that?

    Well, let's look at the punishments once again.

    <cont>

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      <cont>

      The punishments were:
      >woman would have to give birth and be submissive to her man
      Well, obviously. Women during pregnancy and childbirth are susceptible to dangers they normally wouldn't be, so they have to rely on their husbands/men to take care of them, and in turn they take care of the children once born as well.

      >man would have to live by the sweat of his brow and toil for his food
      So clearly, if the woman is having to take care of children and is in danger if she does other things, the man has to take care of the food and protection. He's gonna have to work just as hard as her in order to survive and ensure she and the children survive.

      These are just responsibilities.

      Why would He give them responsibilities as punishment for disobedience?
      If someone disobeys, it means they can't be trusted. Why would The Divine Creator give responsibilities to creations that can't be trusted to listen to him?

      I argue that the original sin itself wasn't the disobedience, but the unwillingness to take responsibilities for their actions.

      When God asked Adam, he blamed Eve AND GOD.
      Eve blamed the serpent.
      The serpent had nothing to say.

      They shifted blame, to try and say it's not their fault they did it.
      And for this, they are given responsibilities and are cast out of Eden.

      But this is where I ask: were these actually punishments?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        In Eden, man and woman lived in ignorant bliss. There was no concept of good and evil.
        There was no concept of death.
        There was creation, and The Divine Creator.

        God had given man and woman free will.

        He knew that they might potentially eat the fruit, and told them not to because they would die.

        What if it wasn't that we'd die, but that we'd become aware that we would die someday?
        Animals have an understanding of alive and dead. But they don't understand life and death.
        And they certainly aren't aware that they themselves some day will die.

        Suddenly, upon eating this fruit, we are aware of our vulnerability, we are aware that we can be hurt, feel shame, and we that we can, and will, die. Very few animals harvest and collect things for future survival.
        Humans (majority) do it all the time. Our entire civilisation is built around the continued survival of humanity.

        Now we no longer live in the ignorance of the moment that all that exist is creation and The Creator. We are aware of our place within creation, we realise we are potential food. Potential enemies.

        Telling us of what responsibilities we'll have now that we're self aware, is that really punishment?
        Were we really cast out of Eden, or did we realise that Eden had dangers to it as well?
        To the toddler like mind of man and woman then, it was perfect. To a self aware adult, it's different.

        <cont>

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So this is why I ask: Were we really punished?

          Of course to the selfish, lazy, narcissistic ego, this is punishment. To no longer just live in ignorant bliss under the protection and guidance of The Divine Creator at all times.
          To be aware of your ultimate doom.

          Is natural death evil?
          I'm not talking about murder or war. I'm talking about living out your life and dying of old age.
          Is this evil? It's the natural cycle of creation. The ego fears death, but the soul knows it moves on.
          We knew of "good and evil" but did we comprehend it?

          The Divine Creator did the right thing, I'm not arguing that He didn't. But did humanity understand that this wasn't a punishment, but just a natural part of growing and maturing?

          I know this opens up hearsay against Christian teachings, and honestly, I do not wish to think that Christ's sacrifice was for naught. So I'd love to hear some well thought out opinions on this.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, the serpent was evil. Yes, we should not have eaten the fruit. No, you are not somehow the good guy, satan. Just stop.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Honestly enjoyed reading this a bit, finally something coherent in this place.
          However being aware of death and vulnerability after eating the fruit doesn't really make sense, since death and pain didn't exist before eating the fruit and were introduced as punishments as mentioned

          <cont>

          So the punishments consisted of:
          >man and woman would always have differences with each other and be resentful of each other
          >woman would have to give painful child birth and would have to submit to her husband
          >man would have to toil and live by the sweat of his brow
          >and from dust you came and to dust you shall return
          >cast out of Eden

          We got that out of the way. We're all on the same page? Great.

          Now, here's what started this thought process of mine.
          If this is the punishment, what was the original sin exactly?
          Most of everyone teaches that the original sin is the disobedience.
          But as some have argued, sadly mostly LHP occultists, how could they have known disobedience if they didn't know the difference between truth and falsehood? Truth is good, falsehood is evil. But they weren't aware of this. They took information in, and that's it. They were told two contradicting statements, but without the concept of Truth and Falsehood, there was no way for them to understand that they were being lied to and would be disobeying God. Disobedience as a concept couldn't exist for them either since they were not aware of what Good and Evil are. So why would they be punished for that?

          Well, let's look at the punishments once again.

          <cont>

          I'd say that it's still a punishment. From our points of view, in a fallen world run on survival of the fittest and everything, maturity and responsibility seem like good things, because they are useful and those who don't embrace them die off. Yet at the same time, it was precisely the sin that landed the world in such a fallen state. So you've mistakenly applied the preconception that maturity and awareness of vulnerability are positive attributes here, when they're merely positive as a reaction to the dangerous state of the world, which, as Genesis explains, was due to the original sin.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Very few animals harvest and collect things for future survival.
          uh, no, go outside

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I'll do you one better:
    ‘I can affirm for you that the Adam of the Bible was, not only, not the first man on Earth, far from it, but he was called Robanan and he didn’t have a wife called Eve but two wives named Levia and Dina. The race of israelites developed from these three, without mixing with other races because, by atavism, they felt themselves superior - and indeed they were.'

    ‘Fruit trees were laden with fruit, bowing under the weight of oranges, mandarins or apples, according to latitude. Exotic fruits, of kinds that actually no longer exist on Earth, were harvested in abundance. One such fruit, called the Laikoti, possessed a property that caused an excitation of brain activity, allowing whoever ate it to solve problems which would normally be beyond them. This
    property was not actually a drug but the fruit was, nevertheless, condemned by the sages. The Laikoti was only authorised to be planted in the gardens of the King.

    ‘Man being what he is, however, the fruit was secretly planted in various places throughout the continent. Those caught with the fruit were harshly punished for they had directly disobeyed the King of Mu. In matters of religion and government, he was to be obeyed absolutely, as he was the representative of the Great Spirit.'

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Cool fanfiction. Never happened, though.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It is simply MY TRUTH. I have no obligation to prove anything to anyone. God bless

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Where is this from?

      Honestly enjoyed reading this a bit, finally something coherent in this place.
      However being aware of death and vulnerability after eating the fruit doesn't really make sense, since death and pain didn't exist before eating the fruit and were introduced as punishments as mentioned [...]

      I'd say that it's still a punishment. From our points of view, in a fallen world run on survival of the fittest and everything, maturity and responsibility seem like good things, because they are useful and those who don't embrace them die off. Yet at the same time, it was precisely the sin that landed the world in such a fallen state. So you've mistakenly applied the preconception that maturity and awareness of vulnerability are positive attributes here, when they're merely positive as a reaction to the dangerous state of the world, which, as Genesis explains, was due to the original sin.

      >since death and pain didn't exist before eating the fruit and were introduced as punishments as mentioned
      This is where I'd politely debate that it was not that death and pain didn't exist before us eating the fruit, we just weren't aware of it.
      My example I give here is a toddler.
      A toddler exists in the moment, it can feel pain, yes, but it doesn't have the cognitive ability to see that something can cause it pain/harm. Even 5 year olds don't have this, hence why we hold their hands and tell them to look both ways before we cross a street.
      I would say Man as a collective was in the same mentality at this point.

      Mind you, I'm coming at this from viewing the Genesis story as an allegory and not literal.

      If it's taken literally, then yes of course, anything I've said in this entire thread is moot and nonsensical.
      And while this may be where we differ, I do agree with your statement:
      >in a fallen world run on survival of the fittest and everything, maturity and responsibility seem like good things

      And honestly, it would be hard for me to argue that the world isn't "fallen" because current events as they are certainly show that it is. But like you said, it's fallen because of us. We created the fall, I agree.

      But from a natural sense, like how animals live within a cycle of life, would it be like that still if we didn't eat of this fruit? Or would we just not be aware of it? Or would we understand that this is the cycle of creation?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Well biblically speaking, mainstream abrahamic religion assumes that everything was all perfect before the fall, and that death itself was a result of the fall (for christians, this would be why Jesus had to die to conquer death). But animals existed before the fall, so I suppose they all just lived perfectly without death or predation somehow? Or maybe they weren't even conscious at all, I don't know. That's the orthodox religious view I suppose.

        I guess you can have your own interpretive view of Genesis, after all since the early founding years of Christianity most scholars considered it an allegory and not factual as well. But from how I see it, if death and pain did exist before the fall, and humans were chosen to be protected in a perfect sanctuary, doing the sin caused them to get thrown out, gaining maturity and survival instincts still isn't necessarily a positive thing. I mean, sure, they were 'more ignorant', but how would this be bad? We see it as better because we're in a state where an error could result in great pain and suffering which must be borne, but would it be worse if you were blissfully ignorant under the care of what is assumed to be an omnipotent being?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I guess I'll have to look up what the Catholic and Orthodox view on the matter of the animal kingdom pre-Fall is.

          This part about Christ is why I don't go fully into this view for now, as it would take away the purpose of Christs sacrifice.

          But I get a feeling there is psychology behind it.

          I've multiple occultists (not edgy bois, but proper deep into occult/arcane topics) refer to Christ as "the great reconciler" and I'm still trying to figure out what this means.

          In any case, thank you for your input, as you were actually quite cordial and thoughtful as well.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You go to the Father through Christ
            Christ reconciles Man with God and crafts a new covenant with him
            When Man dies with Christ his body will be reconciled into a perfect heavenly vessel which will know neither death nor sorrow

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Where is this from?
        found it
        https://projectavalon.net/Thiaoouba_Prophecy.pdf

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You're also forgetting that in Eden they were allowed to eat freely from the Tree of Life. Not having access to that is what made them mortal.
    Seems like a major punishment to me.
    Also, in Eden, they could have still had children, it just wouldn't have been painful, bloody and dangerous.
    Doesn't seem like just responsibilities to me.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This is not mentioned in the bible, so your interpretation is just as valid as mine.

      being removed from a place of unconscious enslavement was a gift.
      people just love comfort more than having free thought until they have to remove their mindly chains and see them for what it is.

      there isn't enough suffering to inflict upon that kind of scum. sincerely hope they'll never have a physical plane to call their home ever again, or maybe they should.

      I reject this LHP mentality. Ignorance from being new is not a form a slavery. Children are not slaves, they are children.
      We do not put rules on them because they are our property, we do it because they do not understand the need for structure yet.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I reject this LHP mentality.
        whether you accept or reject or associate it with some LHP/RHP bs isn't relevant at all. That's just some perspective or shit from down here.
        >Ignorance from being new is not a form a slavery.
        >Children are not slaves, they are children.
        >We do not put rules on them because they are our property, we do it because they do not understand the need for structure yet.
        You seem to be missing the point entirely. If we were to put your child in a zoo they might not be able to understand and frame their experience in a grander perspective.
        You give your children many experiences in controlled environments to lead them onto independence eventually, not to keep them in a vegetable state indefinitely or for them to sing praises to some higher being.

        There are such beings who herd young spirits and souls into circles that do not serve there interest and growth, usually for self-interested reasons: they are more gullible, inexperienced or not powerful enough to overpower the tremendous psychic pressure that these bigger beings can generate to keep them docile and "calm". Or they just shoot you full of happyjuice causing your consciousness to zone out. Failing that the teeth come out and various methods are employed to erode their willpower.

        This has nothing to do with ignorance on young ones part or LHP/RHP shit. It's simply an unfortunate side-effect of free will in the higher planes. Whether you believe in it or not: it happens and they are hunted and cracked. Like a vicious cycle. It's also part of the reason why some people have an innate disgust for or reject the idea of "heaven", just as much as you might reject this notion.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >[2:9] Out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
        >[2:16] And the LORD God commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
        With the sole exception of the tree of knowledge. They were allowed the tree of life.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I was referring to them having children in the garden.

          >I reject this LHP mentality.
          whether you accept or reject or associate it with some LHP/RHP bs isn't relevant at all. That's just some perspective or shit from down here.
          >Ignorance from being new is not a form a slavery.
          >Children are not slaves, they are children.
          >We do not put rules on them because they are our property, we do it because they do not understand the need for structure yet.
          You seem to be missing the point entirely. If we were to put your child in a zoo they might not be able to understand and frame their experience in a grander perspective.
          You give your children many experiences in controlled environments to lead them onto independence eventually, not to keep them in a vegetable state indefinitely or for them to sing praises to some higher being.

          There are such beings who herd young spirits and souls into circles that do not serve there interest and growth, usually for self-interested reasons: they are more gullible, inexperienced or not powerful enough to overpower the tremendous psychic pressure that these bigger beings can generate to keep them docile and "calm". Or they just shoot you full of happyjuice causing your consciousness to zone out. Failing that the teeth come out and various methods are employed to erode their willpower.

          This has nothing to do with ignorance on young ones part or LHP/RHP shit. It's simply an unfortunate side-effect of free will in the higher planes. Whether you believe in it or not: it happens and they are hunted and cracked. Like a vicious cycle. It's also part of the reason why some people have an innate disgust for or reject the idea of "heaven", just as much as you might reject this notion.

          I'm trying to understand what you're saying but your post isn't that coherent.

          You go to the Father through Christ
          Christ reconciles Man with God and crafts a new covenant with him
          When Man dies with Christ his body will be reconciled into a perfect heavenly vessel which will know neither death nor sorrow

          But what does it mean to the occultist who doesn't recognise the Christian faith as valid? It's something else when they are claiming the same of Christ.

          First of all, there is the day 6 humans made by the Creator, and then the garden of eden humans made by something else to serve him and tend his gated garden. These eden humans were child like in nature, running around nude like a toddler and not procreating. The "fruit" is metaphorical. Not sure if it even happened all at once, could have been generations of teaching and evolving them before they had the capacity to see they were getting lied to and abused by the lord of the garden. Slaves, basically. Once they had that knowledge, the lord of the garden had no use for them and kicked them out and they made their way into the world, and eventually their children co-mingled with the day 6 humans. It's presented as punishment (disobeying authority is le bad), but really it's a matter of perspective that we still struggle with as a society today. With freedom comes danger. Would I rather be free and unprotected, or a slave and protected?

          What I don't understand here, is why everyone makes this depiction of The Divine Creator as either the purest of good or the a slave master of sort? To claim He is anything other than The Divine Creator almost seems.. wrong?
          I mean, Isaiah 45:7. Well, at least depending on which you read and how you read it, and then "modern scholars" are claiming it's a mistranslation, but it's hard to know.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    being removed from a place of unconscious enslavement was a gift.
    people just love comfort more than having free thought until they have to remove their mindly chains and see them for what it is.

    there isn't enough suffering to inflict upon that kind of scum. sincerely hope they'll never have a physical plane to call their home ever again, or maybe they should.

  5. 1 month ago
    DoctorGreen

    >you shall surely die
    >surely
    It actually uses "you shall die die". that means that they would suffer an extreme dead possibly on the spot

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Only the slave master wants to withhold knowledge and keep his underlings ignorant. The roles are reversed

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Yes OP, the story doesn't make any sense.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    you have seemingly extremely long-windedly discovered that genesis likely comes from a gnostic source.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's a story. God was always going to give the gift of knowledge. But, humans are slow learners. So, here is a talking snake, eat the fruit, blah, blah.

    Man takes that and says women are less than. Here we are in present day, and many religions use that as an excuse to treat women as less than. Frickin man and religion.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Eden = ignorance

    Hell = having knowledge but realizing it is useless in the israelite World Order because it's all based on Mana (Money)

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous
  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    First of all, there is the day 6 humans made by the Creator, and then the garden of eden humans made by something else to serve him and tend his gated garden. These eden humans were child like in nature, running around nude like a toddler and not procreating. The "fruit" is metaphorical. Not sure if it even happened all at once, could have been generations of teaching and evolving them before they had the capacity to see they were getting lied to and abused by the lord of the garden. Slaves, basically. Once they had that knowledge, the lord of the garden had no use for them and kicked them out and they made their way into the world, and eventually their children co-mingled with the day 6 humans. It's presented as punishment (disobeying authority is le bad), but really it's a matter of perspective that we still struggle with as a society today. With freedom comes danger. Would I rather be free and unprotected, or a slave and protected?

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    two trees in eden, one of eternal life and one of knowledge between good and evil, eve chose one over the other, and God saw this, and He was pleased; for those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for me shall find it

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Šī vieta tagad ir mana tualete.

  14. 1 month ago
    Luke73

    yahweh is a c**t

    I SPIT IN CONTEMPT and DISGUST (and to avert EVIL)

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