Besides, God wouldn't send someone who's never heard of him to hell right?

Besides, God wouldn't send someone who's never heard of him to hell right? Why burn someone for eternity when they never even had the chance for salvation?
>No, they still can go to Heaven based off being a good person
Then what's all the praying and worshipping about? Why can't God send us all to heaven based off how we live our life? So someone who's never heard of him can get into heaven based off good morals, but a person who has good morals and knows about god but doesn't believe believe he's real burns forever. Logic 101 at it's finest.

Christcuckery debunked once again.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That's not going to happen in the first place. People who follow Love and Truth were already reaching for God in their own way. They would never reject him if they heard more about him. It's exactly what they wanted in the first place. Like something on the tip of their tongue. They'd want to know him even more. Even if the messengers were bad, they would still see the truth of Christ and dismiss the messengers and embrace Christ instead. This is what a lot of Native Americans did, for example. They didn't adopt European attitudes, but blended teachings about the bible with their older ideas of the Great Spirit or something similar. Or same with African Americans. They were told about the gospel by countries engaged in slavery, but they dismissed those specific people and developed their own rich traditions. Christ has a way breaking through to people despite the bad messengers and circumstances.
    But yes, for those who never heard anything at all are still possibly fine with God.
    >For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ-Romans 2:14-16

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >People who follow Love and Truth were already reaching for god

      But that's the point. If someone doesn't know who god is because they've never heard of the Bible in the first place, which god are they supporting or getting closer to? If you can get closer to god without knowing christ, what's the point of christianity?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        There's only one God There's a lot of demons though that people like to call gods but they're really not even close

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          But putting beliefs aside, if I wouldn't have even gone to hell if I never knew Christianity, what was the point in God sending his son to die for "our sins"?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >which god
        Bruh. It’s all one. It doesn’t matter what name you’re giving it, it’s the pragmatics, not the details, that yield the results.
        The man who doesn’t follow any religion but actively thinks with creativity and love is closer to God than the man who goes to church but abuses those who don’t.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >People who follow Love and Truth were already reaching for God in their own way. They would never reject him if they heard more about him.
      I don't think their path would lead them to seek an angry and vengeful war demon who favors one particular big-nosed desert tribe

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >People who follow Love and Truth were already reaching for God in their own way.
      Oh yeah, if I follow Love and Truth it's exactly the christian god I would flock too. picrel

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >no replies
    Heh, my threads can never be refuted.

    Atheism: 1

    Theism: 0

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You were too hasty my friend. I just replied 🙂

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Sure, but it doesn't mean you're correct. Nothing personal though, I'm sure you're a decent person.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This one image destroys christianity. It's obvious that Christianity was just a tool used by many Europeans as a way to justify oppression and power over others and even over themselves.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You seem to think that who is saved is independent of God's plan. You're wrong. God arranges history so that only the people who are supposed to be saved are saved. There aren't any accidents, there's no randomness. And this is entirely Biblical. The Bible clearly states everyone who's saved was known to God before the world existed. Someone isn't lost because they just so happened to hear about Christ and weren't convinced. Whoever is lost was always going to be lost. Missionaries are part of God's salvific plan, but all they do is in accord with his eternal decree. End of. All orthodox Christians agree on this, Calvinists, Arminians, Molinists, whatever. Only maybe heretical open theists who didn't exist until a few decades ago might not agree.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >The Bible clearly states everyone who's saved was known to God before the world existed.

      If that's true what was the point of God creating Adam and eve and blaming them for the fall or even sending his son to die in the first place? Why did Jesus say so long as you believe in him you shall be saved? According to you, God already knew who he was going to save and who he wasn't.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I have two gift bags. One is rainbow colored. The other is brown. I tell you one has has a bubble gum pink dildo in it. The other has a log of rubber shit in it. I know who you are. I know you're a homosexual degenerate and I also know a homosexual always picks the one with the rainbow on it. I can make 99.9% of homosexuals pick the one with the rubber dog shit in it.

        I have an imperfect understanding of human nature, history, etc. and I can do that. Imagine what a person with a perfect understanding can do. Did he know right fropm the beginning? He said he did. But why? Do we know exactly why? He never said. Maybe he's just very good at reading people. I'm sure he is. We don't know. But for your purposes, if you're smart, you assume you're one of his people, until you find out otherwise.

        Maybe what I just said helped you to understand a bit. Maybe he always knew I'd wind up here tonight and say that, because that's how good he is.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Sounds very mischievous and why would anyone want to worship a god who toys with his creation like this. This entire "maybe I know, maybe I don't" game sounds bad. Also again with the cursing and calling other people names...that's not Christian.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            ?si=RxMp0tsAig8c2GcK

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            He doesn't toy with anybody. He simply knows what you'll do, before you do it. Just like I did. Just like me, he can influence you, apply the right stimuli, at the right time. But only because he knows you very well. That's why he knows there's some people he can't help. He knows us, and he knows what makes us tick. The question you have to ask yourself, is he doing all this just for fun and laughs? Or is he trying to keep you out of hell?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            If god knows you very well to the point where he knows what you'll di even before you do it, what's the point of christ?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Jesus is the life raft. We're all drowning. But some of us don't want to drown, some do, some don't care one way or the other, some don't know they are drowning.

            Apparently, God is not the kind of person that orders people into the life raft whether they want to or not. He suggests you get in, he may prod you a bit. But in the end he leaves it up to you. I believe the same. I wouldn't forcibly convert you to Christianity if I could. That doesn't make you a Christian. You're the same hellbound lost soul inside as you were before I held the sword to your throat. For you to be anything, you have to choose it. All I can do is show you your options, and the consequences of those options, and that's all God really does. People love to claim he forces people. He doesn't force anybody to do anything. Laying out the obvious consequences of actions is not force. If I tell you not to stick your hand down the snake hole, you'll get bit. I'm not condemning you to anything. I'm just telling you, you want to live, don't do it. Choice is yours.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Alright Satan, why did God make us drown? Why did God create some people who he knew were doomed to drown?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            God created humanity at large, he did not directly create each person according to some whim, and he certainly didnt create your sins

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >God created humanity at large, he did not directly create each person according to some whim
            Do you mean he didn't create each individual person? If that's the case, did he roll the dice or something?

            >he certainly didnt create your sins
            He knew what I would do because he knows everything, and yet he created me. Directly or not, he is responsible for everything I have done, for good or ill.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Do you mean he didn't create each individual person? If that's the case, did he roll the dice or something?
            God created Adam and thousands/millions of years later your parents had sex. You have attributes of both of them, and you inherited the effects of your ancestors sins. God (likely) did not directly intervene to produce you

            >He knew what I would do because he knows everything, and yet he created me. Directly or not, he is responsible for everything I have done, for good or ill.
            God created you with agency and gave you many blessings. Hes only "responsible" for your actions in the most vague tenuous way imaginable.

            I think the fundamental misunderstanding you have is you dont understand the concept of agency. God is so powerful that he was able to create people with the power to guide their own destiny.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            How can I be said to have agency if God knows what choice I will make before even I do? How is that any different from my path being set in stone?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Knowing isn't doing and isn't causing. This is the whole problem of preaching pre-destination to the sheep. They don't understand that this is a relatively lofty theological distinction, not a call to nihilism

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sounds like a lot of washing of hands. Sure, God can see all ends, and has the power to set them however would please him. But if he knocks over the first domino, he's not responsible when the last one falls. It's easy enough to say a person has free will, but it means nothing if there's only one possible outcome.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You are trying to understand the concept from God's perspective which is impossible. From your and mine earthly perspective within time free will and agency absolutely exist and are crucial.

            >but it means nothing if there's only one possible outcome.
            Here is the truly wonderful part. Even if all your efforts are infinitely small in comparison to God, he still chooses to respect and appreciate them

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You have agency over means, but not ends. Certain events will happen regardless of your choices.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >The question you have to ask yourself, is he doing all this just for fun and laughs? Or is he trying to keep you out of hell?

            If god knows me better then I know myself, I assume he knows I don't want to go to hell. So why have this dilemma where I either chose christ or say I don't, I go to hell? Why can't he just send me to heaven when I die? Or say I never even knew about Christianity...it's better not to tell anyone about christ because at the very least they won't go to hell when they die due to ignorance.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >handing a blind man a cane
            >help the man
            >and the statues
            >at the art galary

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            What are you trying to say?
            More like
            >a baby laying on the grass
            >he has a fly on his head but he can't feel it
            >you know he has a fly on his head but chose to hit his head to kill the fly knowing theirs a possibility you could hit the soft spot.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            you actually did that?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No, it's a metaphor. But you get the jist. Basically, just don't do anything. Same with so-called Christians.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            even breathe? pretty sure I met a lot of Christians who breathe. I mean some of the ones who don't have funny names but I get those second hand from rocks

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You already know, so the point is moot for you. I don't know where they'll go, or how badly they'll be punished. But I also know that there are people out there who will choose to follow Jesus and won't go to any punishment, no matter how gentle or severe it may be. Would it be fair to them do you think, if I said nothing?

            That's kind of the paradox of it. It seems some people are going to hell basically as a matter of course. Others are not. But why not? because I said something to them? If it wasn't me, would it be somebody else? I don't understand the paradox completely. Things are obviously way more complicated than what I understand them to be. I don't know how the machine works exactly. Nobody does. We were given some basic instructions to operate on the moron, midwit level we exist on. I imagine that's all we can really handle. anything more would be overloading us with things we can't comprehend and accomplish. Talking about Jesus to people, I can handle that.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Talking about Jesus to people, I can handle that.

            Well what would be the purpose of talking about Jesus to people? I mean if they don't know Christianity like that Eskimo, they probably won't go to hell after death. Where they go, I don't know but they don't suffer and because God is omnipresent guess what? He'll still be with them. So for me, it's a win win.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Everything you say sounds smart but is moronic.
            >He simply knows what you'll do, before you do it. Just like I did. Just like me, he can influence you, apply the right stimuli, at the right time. But only because he knows you very well. That's why he knows there's some people he can't help.
            >That's why he knows there's some people he can't help.
            So he lets them live to their fate and go to hell? He truly loves us all yes? and he lets them all live to their fate and go to hell. A hell that he created for people he already knew would go there, as a deterrent for people he already knows will go there.
            Tough love, huh?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        One, you're moving the goalposts. I answered the objection you pretended was unanswerable. And there's no IF. IT'S IN THE BIBLE:
        >For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. -- Ephesians 1:4
        Why do you morons try taking on Christianity without knowing the basics of Scripture?
        >According to you, God already knew who he was going to save and who he wasn't.
        That doesn't change the fact that having sinned, they needed to be saved. Why God let sin enter the world in the first place isn't known. But that's a different theological problem. You seem to think that divine foreknowledge precludes genuine libertarian free will on the part of humans. Molinists don't agree.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >knowing the basics of Scripture?

          I was already going by what you told me. If god knows he'll create people and some will not be saved and he knows those people before the creation...there's zero reason why he would send Christ. He could just A; not create people or B; just send those people to hell without offering a false solution.

          >That doesn't change the fact that having sinned, they needed to be saved.

          Saved from what? God already knew Adam would eat the fruit and only a few people would be saved. It's determined, doesn't save offer a choice? But we have no choice and if we do, God knows it already.

          >Why God let sin enter the world in the first place isn't known

          Ah, there it is. We just don't know but you better believe and we'll even force you to believe because I; the guy who's insulting you cares so much about your soul. Isn't that just wonderful?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Every worldview has things that aren't known. What exactly is the reason for the Christian to expect a complete explanation of everything in mortal life? You seem to think it's obvious that there's no reason for people to live who will go to hell. Says who? And once again we're now arguing about something else. Your original argument has been refuted.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Literally zero argument has been refuted in every definition of the word refuted.

            >What exactly is the reason for the Christian to expect a complete explanation of everything in mortal life?

            Because according to you, you have the truth. God's divine plan that you understand and you have a responsibility to save others lest they be damned. If Christianity can suffer mortal blows with a simple logical question (OP's post) how strong is it?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Literally zero argument has been refuted in every definition of the word refuted
            The original argument was that salvation is hostage to random luck, whether someone who would reject Christ happens to hear of him and that sort of thing. I showed that from Scripture, this is clearly wrong. Now we're on a different topic, "why did God allow sin?"
            >Because according to you, you have the truth
            We do have the truth. There are perfectly intelligible senses of having the truth that don't entail knowing absolutely all things there are to know. Every Christian will tell you the trinity is mysterious. So what? The origin of life is mysterious to materialistic atheists. Does that mean materialistic atheism is wrong, because it can't answer some questions? No. That alone doesn't refute it at all. Christians have the most important truth, that Christ is God and that he is the key to salvation. To say we have the truth given that makes perfect sense.
            >God's divine plan that you understand and you have a responsibility to save others lest they be damned
            I said that God uses people in the unfolding of his salvific plan. That doesn't mean his plan is at the mercy of luck or randomness. It means it plays out in part through human activity.
            >If Christianity can suffer mortal blows with a simple logical question (OP's post) how strong is it?
            It has suffered nothing. Anyone who can read and understand my replies knows that.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I showed that from Scripture, this is clearly wrong

            Your argument was that Christ actually already knows who will or won't be saved which only ADDS to the dilemma.

            >Christians have the most important truth, that Christ is God and that he is the key to salvation.

            There's a difference between an atheist like me who doesn't know the orgins of life and a Christian who can't answer why it's nessesary that man believes in Christ in order to be saved when god already knows who will and will not be saved, and that his creation would be sinful to begin with.

            >God uses people in the unfolding of his salvific plan. That doesn't mean his plan is at the mercy of luck or randomness.

            Which defeats the purpose of having a plan in the first place. Having a plan implies that you don't know how things will go, but there's an agenda. If god knows who will and won't be saved and knows you so much that you would have never believed in him even before you existed, what's the plan? Why even create someone who doesn't believe? I think I'm just going to leave it with that.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Your argument was that Christ actually already knows who will or won't be saved which only ADDS to the dilemma
            No it doesn't. It makes the dispute about a different problem.
            >why it's nessesary that man believes in Christ in order to be saved when god already knows who will and will not be saved, and that his creation would be sinful to begin with
            You aren't putting this correctly. For example a Molinist would say God knows in advance who will exercise his free will to accept him given the choice. It's those who he knows freely choose him who are saved. Your phrasing suggests their choosing him is INDEPENDENT of their salvation somehow. It isn't on this model or any Christian model of salvation.
            >There's a difference between
            Yet you don't specify it. My point is merely that every worldview is incomplete and that, accordingly, that alone can't be sufficient reason to reject a worldview in favor of another.
            >Which defeats the purpose of having a plan in the first place. Having a plan implies that you don't know how things will go, but there's an agenda. If god knows who will and won't be saved and knows you so much that you would have never believed in him even before you existed, what's the plan? Why even create someone who doesn't believe? I think I'm just going to leave it with that.
            This is just semantical flim-flam. I could just as easily have said "what God has ordained" or the "divine decree." God's "plan" is a convenient way of speaking that's often used. It isn't meant to imply strict analogy between the nature of human and divine "plans." And you again assume there is no point for someone who goes to hell to exist. How do you know such a thing? A world in which genuine human freedom exists is a world in which some can and do choose evil. God can foreknow who will choose evil, but he still makes people because of the goodness of free agents, which isn't annihilated by some using their freedom to reject God and be lost.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >which isn't annihilated by some using their freedom to reject God and be lost.

            It does. If you're a molinist who believes God knows in advance who will exercise his free will; this means he knows who will exercise free will to chose christ or be damned. Which means that freewill doesn't actually exist. There's no freedom if god knows everything you do when you will do it before you even existed. All of this means of course that there is no logical reason to believe in Christianity.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It doesn't imply anything of the kind. Molinism was devised to reconcile divine foreknowledge and human freedom. That was the whole point of it lol. But in any case Molinism doesn't need to be true to answer the OP objection. Calvinists reject the idea that people are really free. They accept that God determines everything that people do. I'm not a Calvinist, but that still solves the problem you raised in the OP. God simply makes some who are good and some who are evil. The good ones necessarily in virtue of being good choose Christ. Everyone God wants to be saved is saved. God owes us nothing since he gives us everything, so he can give salvation to whomever he wills and withhold it from whomever he wills. That's the Calvinist take and it's impervious to the problem you raised in the OP, as is Molinism.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm not a Calvinist, but that still solves the problem you raised in the OP.

            It still has problems, the same exact ones the OP had mentioned before. Since you mentioned calvanists...it's intresting how none of them believe they are going to hell but in the case of ex-calvanists, god already knew they would reject his "plan."

            >Everyone God wants to be saved is saved. God owes us nothing since he gives us everything

            What is god giving us? Say a person like me or really anyone who isn't Christian period, what is god giving us? Life? Sure, but just so we can burn in hell for eternity.

            >god makes all of our choices

            So there's no free will.

            >Yet you don't specify it. My point is merely that every worldview is incomplete

            And there are those that are more logical than others. As an atheist, I do not know the origins of life. I have an idea based on what Darwin and others like Richard Owens wrote about, but there isn't enough evidence to say one model is the definite complete truth because there is a lack of evidence. Meanwhile, Christians believe in things based on nothing. It's obviously discriminatory since they believe non-Christians will go to hell and thus breed supremacy, which is currently what the U.S. is going through. There's been a rise in Christian nationalism, but either way, the evidence is just like any other religion.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It still has problems
            Along with every other worldview. This is uninteresting and ultimately has no implications. Who cares?
            >the same exact ones the OP had mentioned before
            You can continue to simply assert this against my demonstration that it's false and that we're dealing with other problems now. It doesn't make you right.
            >it's intresting how none of them believe they are going to hell
            Calvinists tend to believe they're saved by faith alone. So there's nothing even slightly surprising about that.
            >but in the case of ex-calvanists, god already knew they would reject his "plan"
            As Christ tells us only those who persevere to the end are saved. You think you have a point but have none. You haven't brought up one thing a Calvinist would struggle to explain yet.
            >What is god giving us? Say a person like me or really anyone who isn't Christian period, what is god giving us? Life? Sure, but just so we can burn in hell for eternity.
            Calvinists would point out that God couldn't display his full nature without evil to conquer. His purpose for making you needn't only or at all depend on what's good in your evaluation.
            >So there's no free will
            Can you read? I already said, YES, on CALVINISM (which I personally don't accept), humans don't have free will as ordinarily understood and God determines everything that happens including everything people do. Molinists by contrast say we do have true free will and that this can be reconciled with divine foreknowledge.
            >It's obviously discriminatory since they believe non-Christians will go to hell and thus breed supremacy
            "Christianity is wrong because it offends my redditor morality that only started to exist post-1960! But also I'm an atheist and have no rational basis for belief in objective morality." Ok lol. Very persuasive.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >we're dealing with other problems now.

            Bro, we're still dealing with the same problems. Why would you tell others about "christ" if that person who god knew was doomed, was already and would always be doomed?

            >only those who persevere to the end are saved

            So the end is just death despite god knowing you would reject him.

            >His purpose for making you needn't only or at all depend on what's good in your evaluation.

            And how would that play out? What "evil" are we talking about?

            >humans don't have free will as ordinarily understood and God determines everything that happens including everything people do. Molinists by contrast say we do have true free will and that this can be reconciled with divine foreknowledge.

            Ah, so you accept we don't have free will so we're just robots and god knows everything whether by divine knowledge or by something else that just means divine knowledge.

            >Christianity is wrong because it offends my redditor morality that only started to exist post-1960!

            What would that morality be? I don't post on reddit nor have I been condescending in this discussion so I think by default I can claim better morality.

            >objective morality

            My morality is objective. It revolves around what is good for survival and happiness in life.

            >moves us on to a different point, one you haven't defended but have simply asserted

            That entire sentence describes Christianity. No basis in facts, evidence or rationality. Replace god with a giant nose that sneezed tye universe and it wouldn't be any different.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >if that person who god knew was doomed, was already and would always be doomed?
            Because God works through men as I already said. Even if it's all determined, he works through men on Calvinism to fulfill his will.
            >So the end is just death despite god knowing you would reject him
            I don't even know what you're trying to say here. You've completely misread me whatever the case.
            >And how would that play out? What "evil" are we talking about?
            The word "evil" doesn't appear in what you quoted.
            >Ah, so you accept we don't have free will so we're just robots and god knows everything whether by divine knowledge or by something else that just means divine knowledge.
            I assume you're trolling. Already said I'm not a Calvinist. I'm explaining Calvinism.
            >What would that morality be?
            Are you new? You don't know what redditors are like and why they're disliked around here?
            >It revolves around what is good for survival and happiness in life
            Grounded in what? To you we're just meat sacks. Why shouldn't a psychopath be a psychopath in an atheistic universe that's just matter and energy in space?
            >That entire sentence describes Christianity
            Pointing out you can't follow an argument "describes Christianity"? Are you drunk?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Even if it's all determined, he works through men on Calvinism to fulfill his will.

            Which basically means we're just machines.

            >The word "evil" doesn't appear in what you quoted.

            Oh....well soooryyy!

            >Calvinists would point out that God couldn't display his full nature without evil to conquer.

            So you know...just the sentence above what I quoted.

            >Are you new? You don't know what redditors are like and why they're disliked around here?

            Well I don't post on reddit but I can think of why many many many people would probably not be liked on this site.

            >I assume you're trolling. Already said I'm not a Calvinist. I'm explaining Calvinism.

            It doesn't matter I'm talking about Christianity in general which includes molinists. Saying god has divine knowledge is no different then just saying he knows everything and all things including the way you'd behave or whether you would even accept Christianity.

            >Grounded in what? To you we're just meat sacks

            That's what all the evidence shows.

            >Why shouldn't a >psychopath be a >psychopath in an atheistic universe that's just matter and energy in space?

            Can? Anything can happen so long as it does not contradict logic within the universe. Now, I think what you meant to say was why should a psychopath be discriminated? Because he or she is a danger to tye living and thriving closed systems of order that exist in the universe. His actions are objectively bad not just against others for the reason I just mentioned, but even for himself.

            >Pointing out you can't follow an argument "describes Christianity"? Are you drunk?

            And there we go with the insults. Yes this sentence

            >point, one you haven't defended but have simply asserted

            That's Christianity and not just Christianity but all religion. Moves to a point and asserts things without any good defense.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Which basically means we're just machines
            I'm not a Calvinist. So feel free to disparage it, but it doesn't change the fact it's invulnerable to OP's objection.
            >Oh....well soooryyy!
            Yeah maybe learn to read.
            >So you know...just the sentence above what I quoted
            I'm not a mind reader. Quote what you're responding to not the wrong sentence. And I'm using "evil" in the commonsense way.
            >divine knowledge
            You mean divine foreknowledge. And no it's not the same. We've been over this already. Molinism is intended to overcome the very problem you think it has because you don't know what it is.
            >objectively bad
            There are no mind-independent normative facts in the atheist's materialist world. Hence no morality.
            >That's Christianity and not just Christianity but all religion. Moves to a point and asserts things without any good defense.
            Funny then that a Christian like me has been wiping the floor with you, and all you can do in response is bloviate in a haze of confusion.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >And I'm using "evil" in the commonsense way.

            Which would probably include my definition but I wanted more specifics on what evil is to you. Even if you believe god needed evil to demonstrate his true intentions, he could have done it in ways that allow.for free will and don't involve some sacrifice of "his" son of conversion. He could have created beings with free will and then a computer simulation that demonstrates to the beings he created what evil is and that would have been the end of it.

            >There are no mind-independent normative facts in the atheist's materialist world.

            Mind independent? Your computer is mind independent. There are plenty of things like a heart beat that are mind independent that require zero awareness from you. We experience things only because of things that are mind-independent like my ears, my mind didn't chose that and it would exist without it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >He could have created beings with free will and then a computer simulation that demonstrates to the beings he created what evil is and that would have been the end of it.
            But I didn't say he did it for some simple utilitarian teaching purpose, as you seem to think.
            >Mind independent? Your computer is mind independent. There are plenty of things like a heart beat that are mind independent that require zero awareness from you. We experience things only because of things that are mind-independent like my ears, my mind didn't chose that and it would exist without it.
            This doesn't address anything I wrote.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >But I didn't say he did it for some simple utilitarian teaching purpose, as you seem to think.

            Ok, well I think you should explain your beliefs. I have already told you mine; I don't believe that belief in a god is rational or logical in any way shape or form compared to literally any other fiction. God could have done many many things to demonstrate his will or goodness without continual suffering or a christ sacrifice.

            >This doesn't address anything I wrote.

            There are facts independent of mind including normative standard facts that we can objectively prove without including the belief in not just god, but literally any higher power or spiritual existences.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Ok, well I think you should explain your beliefs. I have already told you mine; I don't believe that belief in a god is rational or logical in any way shape or form compared to literally any other fiction. God could have done many many things to demonstrate his will or goodness without continual suffering or a christ sacrifice.
            I'm sorry you believe what every other fedora tipper believes. But it's not 2004 anymore. Shit-tier "hur God dumb muh sky fairy" is only convincing to morons at this stage. Following your assertion-only approach, I'll say that Christian faith is rationally defensible and there are many good epistemic reasons to be a Christian.
            >including normative standard facts that we can objectively prove
            Good luck with that. Atheistic moral realism is a joke. Only moral error theory makes sense on atheistic materialism.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I'll say that Christian faith is rationally defensible and there are many good epistemic reasons to be a Christian.

            Putting your cursing aside, which is kind of ironic but not surprising, if I were to tell you that two thousand years ago, a race of aliens that created the universe sent Superman to earth to battle Doomsday to demonstrate faith, courage, and virtue and showed these characteristics while battling Doomsday but died and on the third day resurrected and killed Doomsday, and whose purpose was to demonstrate faith that led to him saying who ever believes can enter eternal life in Krypton, how is that story any different from Christ? It has the same evidence. There's zero logical reason to believe in a god—not just the Christian god, any god. Christianity is also not logical in itself because, say, God wanted to demonstrate his goodness by giving man free will. By this logic, evil would be God's will, and if it's God's will, that means it's permanent, which means Jesus's sacrifice wasn't going to do anything; it wasn't going to save anyone, and sin was necessary to begin with.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No evidence except the massive historical and archeological corroboration of the Bible, evidence from miracles, evidence from religious experience, evidence from natural reason, and more.
            >BUT MUH FEDORA

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Lol I lift, I'm handsome I have no fedora. No evidence and if there is, show it. Think your religion is superior? Now is your one and only chance to prove it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >just piss away hours making a detailed case for your position while I do nothing but throw lazy accusations and assertions at you!
            You cannot follow a EerieWeb thread. I couldn't prove to you that the sky is blue.
            >I'm not a fedora my worldview is just identical to one
            Ok

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Atheistic moral realism is a joke

            Many animals share our values and morals. Whether that's caring for the weak, the elderly, sharing, equality, etc. It has been shown several times in repeateded experiments. Over and over again. You don't need god to be moral.

            >just piss away hours making a detailed case for your position while I do nothing but throw lazy accusations and assertions at you!
            You cannot follow a EerieWeb thread. I couldn't prove to you that the sky is blue.
            >I'm not a fedora my worldview is just identical to one
            Ok

            So...yeah no evidence.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >So...yeah no evidence
            None presented here, no. Just as you haven't given any either, you lazy hypocrite. I'm not putting in 100x the effort that you are, especially when you can't understand three simple sentences.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Cool beans, bro, cool beans.

            >If an animal species were sadistic that'd be just fine by your very bad reasoning.

            Not that different from your reasoning except mine is backed by evidence. It's not impossible to get morality without god, you know that right? I can just say morality is an undiscovered law of physics like gravity, and that the more evolved a species is, the more it's properties resemble the everyday life of said organism.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It's not impossible to get morality without god, you know that right
            You stupidly confuse morality as a system of contingently existing animal sentiments, culturally evolved norms, etc. for morality as objective normative fact.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            "objective normative fact" means independent of the dictates of any "god"

          • 3 weeks ago
            Phraraoh

            it's hard to say if such facts exist. is it fundamental? then there are moral fundamentals floating around in fake Space? is it not fundamental? then what is it grounded in? not biology, because man is a cultural animal. but cultures are infinite, man is Absolute Freedom. this implies relativism about normative facts, thanking God for the Tower of Babel

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The Form of the Good.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Phraraoh

            yeah maybe, then you can do Euthyphro dilemma and say we don't need God we have the Form of the Good. for if God simply recites the form of the Good he is superfluous. That is the Euthyphro dilemma, one half of it anyway.

            Platonism is revived in Schopenhauer so it's possible there are Representations of the Good controlling us from Outer Space.

            good intuition

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We need God, but not to understand right from wrong. We have that built-in from being made in his image.

            then i have an argument for you. if the Form of the Good is perfect, then it can be known. if it can be known, then it is a person. another way of saying this is that if it is ideal, it loves us as people. so God's back. what do you think?

            Yes, Christ can be thought of as an incarnate personal form of the Good. That's why he said his father is the Good.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Phraraoh

            >we don't need God if we are made in his image
            so IF there's a God then we don't need God? nice try though

            Christ (Krishna) is the conclusive truth of the logician (logos) and Morality to the victorious
            >To the victorious I am Morality

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >so IF there's a God then we don't need God?
            I never said "If". God obviously exists since the world exists. And yes, he made us in his image. We are all articulations of the One.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Phraraoh

            then i have an argument for you. if the Form of the Good is perfect, then it can be known. if it can be known, then it is a person. another way of saying this is that if it is ideal, it loves us as people. so God's back. what do you think?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            God is the only plausible ground of normative fact

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Many animals share our values and morals. Whether that's caring for the weak, the elderly, sharing, equality, etc. It has been shown several times in repeateded experiments. Over and over again. You don't need god to be moral.
            The explanation on your worldview being purely evolutionary. If an animal species were sadistic that'd be just fine by your very bad reasoning.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >And there are those that are more logical than others
            I know you have trouble recognizing this, but once again, that moves us on to a different point, one you haven't defended but have simply asserted. Have a look, I can do it to:
            >atheism is illogical and based on nothing
            See how easy?

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That matter is discussed in the Bible. Jesus said it will be better in the afterlife for somebody who had never heard of him, than somebody who did and rejected him. He was hinting that not everybody gets the same in the hereafter. Some will get a worse punishment, some will get off lighter.

    I think it's kind of like your employee manual at work. They all have a line that says lateness is a cause for dismissal. But does anybody know anybody who was ever fired for being late? We've all been late, the boss deals with it on a case by case basis. Yeah, technically he can fire you. But does he? Almost never if ever. But to be sure everybody gets it, he just says, come in late, you can be fired. Otherwise that section of the employee manual will be 2000 pages long to cover all the exceptions. An the exceptions to the exceptions, so he just keeps it simple. The Bible is a book about intensely complicated beings. No book under a billion pages could ever possibly cover it all. She kept it simple. Boiled down to it's most simple, don't frick with me, and I won't have to frick with you. That's basically what you need to understand.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Cursing despite claiming to be Christian...nice.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I'm not really nice. I just worry about people going to hell. Elijah, who rained fire down on people's heads, was not really nice either. It takes all kinds.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If you're worried about people going to hell, don't tell them about Christianity.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    According to Jesus there are no Good people. Many of the things he said were, in fact, awful! He was really only interested in the israelites.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    hell is just the absense of God, ex. living as a moronic eskimo

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That was really racist.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >this one said some hurtful things for what appears to be no reason

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, the doctrine of eternal hell makes no sense for this reason. It implies that God intentionally created some people to be tortured forever

    The reality is that after death, those already in full Union with God will continue to be so, and anyone not will be sent to a purgatory where their uncleanliness will be stripped away. They will be united with God eventually but through a much less preferable means than just doing it during their earthly lives

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Christian larpers keep prophesying falsehoods 24/7
    >No one seems to notice they're 24/7 wrong
    >Religion still taken seriously
    I guess I can pretend there's a huge cat in the Moon who drinks the milk of Destiny and as long as my church has money whatever nonsense I say Will be legit

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Ano Shai

    You burn yourself to save yourself from the feeling of your corpse rotting.

    The only way to stop the rot is to get into the fires of hell. 🙁

    Hell hurts a lot anon.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Within the Christian system not going to hell doesn't mean you go to heaven.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Whats the 3rd option and what is the scriptural basis for it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Same as Judaism, you stay dead

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    hell is not in the bible

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Then Death and Hades[a] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

      Same as Judaism, you stay dead

      Only some israelites believe this. Still waiting on any scriptural basis

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God is not good and does not love us.
    Once you accept that fact all your confusions will be cleared.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Negi Springfield

    >Christcuckery debunked once again
    Why do illiterate people critique books again?

  15. 3 weeks ago
    sage

    > Besides, God wouldn't send someone who's never heard of him to hell right? Why burn someone for eternity when they never even had the chance for salvation?

    this erroneous thinking only arises because the skillful means of anthropomorphizing God into a person and then forgetting that its just a tool for understanding but taking it literally, leads to.

    here is the real deal:
    1. God is not a person. there is no personhood to God. God exists, but you can not point with your finger anywhere and say, here, this is God. this breaks the law of omnipresence. whoever tells you otherwise, ignore them! any pointing leads to deliniation, which is the problem!
    2. "eternal hell" is actually a state which you are ALREADY in. reincarnating non stop into this plane, which can never 100% fulfill you, thus leads to suffering, is "eternal torment". and when you do not manage to escape the cycle of reincarnation, you will be reborn, again and again and again, and thus, you will suffer for "eternity"
    3. salvation or liberation or moksha or enlightenment thus happens by attacking and breaking exactly that, which leads to reincarnation: sex

    real salvation and true christendom, is celibacy:
    keeping your cristos (your seed), doing prostrations to flip your spine upside down, to guide your cristos up the 33 vertebrates of your spine into your golgotha (skull) for it to die there so that the "tree" can be born, is the way back to the Father.
    this way is universal. it has NOTHING to do with religion.
    buddhist monks, yogi brahmacharyas, etc. are "christian" or cristos bearers.

    going to hell is not because of "God". its because of you.
    if you drop your smartphone, can you accuse God for it? can you say why did it fall to the ground, why did it not levitate around my had? God is evil.
    no, this makes no sense.
    the laws of nature and the laws regarding the transmigration of the souls have been setup in this way!

    https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37872485/#q37876445

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i personally believe that seeing as how god made the world and knows everything that will go down here, then we are all going to "heaven", if there is such a thing as an "afterlife". It is obvious to me that heaven and hell are both here on earth, depending on our perspective and actions we bring one or the other down to earth.

    praying is about a personal relationship with the higher self,or god or whatever. it is a moment of peace and appreciative acknowledgment for the things and experiences we have. perspective can change our lives. perspective makes us a victim to our situation or we see our situation, past and present, as stepping stones towards our best selves. tempering makes a sword sharp and strong.

    one of my favorite quotes about christ is that he pointed the way but everyone just sucked on his finger. i dont think christ wanted a religion based on him, he wanted us to go where he was pointing.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Then Elijah approached all the people and said, “How long are you going to struggle with the two choices? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people did not answer him so much as a word.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Unfortunately this doesn't debunk it, it's still very real.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What if hell isn’t real and was made up by humans at a time in our development where people couldn’t conceive a God without a rival devil?

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wrong, those who are "lost" are already in hell.

    Separate from God's love.

    You can try refuting that but you are currently arguing a strawman like most atheists.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Sounds like cultist gobbledyasiatic to me. Fricking sheep

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